Wake up, Buy Here, Pay Here people. It's a beautiful day. Go grab yourself another cup of joe and say hello to Jim and Michelle Rhodes on the Buy Here, Pay Here morning show. Take it away, you two. Good morning, everybody. Welcome to White Hat Wednesday. Yes. Happy to have Attorney Allison Harrison standing by. So she's in the backstage waiting to join us. We just got a couple of quick announcements. I want to tell our listeners quickly that our V8 Dealer Group 2 was pretty limited in about 24 hours it's filled up so we're full now so that so we you know we may or may not open that's the group with um that has the larger dealers of 500 plus accounts so that one's getting full so uh yeah just I would just say if you're interested in a v8 group we've got some people doing both 20 group and uh v8 so you know that's always a possibility so keep that in mind and um Then a couple other quick announcements. Two weeks from today, we have our Rick Reeves Tip of the Hat show. Looking forward to that. We've been getting a lot of really cool emails back from different dealers that were interested you know, part of that. Just back to the nineties. Yeah. Yeah. And, and, and that's, it's like I mentioned before, that's, um, a philosophy that when we talk to different dealers that, that were from that era, they still, um, It's like it was woven into how they do business, and it's just really beautiful. Yeah. And so, yeah, the tip of the hat. Yeah, that'll be fun. And then the 21st, the day after, we have the webinar on team culture, kind of how to attract and retain employees, get them excited about the work environment, all that good stuff. So that'll be the 21st. And we got a calendar put together on our V8 groups for those interested in the V8. Oh, yeah. We'll let you know. And then the 23rd. Neo User Summit. If you're going to be at the BuyerPayer United and you use Neo, try to come in a day early. It's a free event. I think that they've got like lunch and stuff supplied as part of the thing. So it's just, you know, you're going to have an opportunity to dive in. Yeah. Looking forward to getting there for that. And then we'll be extending the invitation to many of our clients and colleagues, friends out there that we know that are involved with Neo. So look forward to seeing some folks in Vegas on the 23rd of April. And I am just so excited about that trip too, because we're going to be doing some roadmap planning while we're there with our CEO who lives in Vegas. And, and we've got a few other people that are look like they're going to be flying in for it. So that's absolutely pretty cool. Well, shall we bring in our guest for the day? I think so. Let's welcome Allison Harrison. Hi, Allison. Allison Harrison. I get it right. Hi. And out of Ohio. Where are you located, Allison? I am downtown Columbus, Ohio. Hi, Jim and Michelle. Thanks for having me. You're welcome. Glad to spend some time with you again. I think this was a subject that we see out there on Facebook. We're part of some Facebook groups, and in these social media circles, we see folks talking about this thing, and I think, you know, I wonder what Allison would say about that, because It's like this big debate and you see a lot of dealers weighing in. Should we list our price? Should we not list our price? Should we say how much down payment? Should we not say how much down payment? And there's a lot of different ideas about what they should and shouldn't do. And, you know, and it's like, you'd be crazy if you, you'd be crazy if you, you'd be, you know, and all of that. And it's just, this is, this is, this is not just a topic about what feels good. You know, but it's about what is legal. And when those, when those conversations get you in trouble and what won't. Exactly. Yeah. Yeah. So when those conversations come up, Allison, we kind of do what our dealer friend in Pennsylvania, Tommy Brandes does. He grabs a popcorn and sit back and watch the conversation and see who's in trouble and who's not. Yeah. Yeah. So it's, it's interesting, but we're, you know, today we want to talk about truth in advertising. One of the things we see out there, especially in the buy here, pay here segment, obviously when we step into advertising, to promoting financing, then obviously there's some stuff to cover. And I want to, before you get into that, I want to quickly mention that you're amongst the legal firms for the Ohio Independent Auto Dealers Association. I noticed if you go to OIADA and go to the website for resources, you're listed there and you include a number of services for dealers in Ohio. So you live this stuff all the time. So you might just share with people kind of what comes up in the realm of truth in advertising. Yeah. So I've been doing this for 15 years. I mean, my dad was a car dealer, so I just came by it naturally. And then I got as far away as I could, which means I'm an attorney for car dealers. That's as far away from the industry as I could manage. I mean, we see it from different perspectives in the truth in advertising and then also in the actual financing. I work I should say with, I represent car dealers in front of the attorney general. And oftentimes we see advertising issues as part of it. Sometimes folks will just lead with down payments because when you look at what consumers are worried about, how much do I have to have out of pocket today to get that call? That's a big thing. And so we'll work with the AG's office and saying, hey, they just have down payment. Well, you can't just advertise $500 down and not say anything else about the financing. There's a bunch of terms that are triggered at the federal level. And then we'll also see folks who want to be a little bit creative and creativity is not always appreciated, especially when we're talking about financing, where they're just like, I just want to charge a finance fee. Everyone pays a set fee that doesn't comply with truth in advertising at the federal level again. And that's an interesting space. And there's all these reasons. I have some clients that are Muslim and they don't they've told me I haven't researched this. They don't believe in paying interest. And that's where some of these creative fees go. And we have to walk through it and say, look, we just can't do that. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. So I just, you know, some of the conversations I was I married into buy hair payer. Let's just start with. So it's not, it's not so much in my blood that, yeah, all of that yet. Good time. So I, you know, I've been learning an awful lot and this is something that Jim has been, has spoken to a lot of different dealers about. And, and I, one of the things I was just thinking about, cause I know that like once you, once you say one thing, once you disclose one thing, you have to disclose all of the things. What about dealers that have like, 99 down in their name. It's an interesting idea, right? Because that's not advertising a specific price for a vehicle. I think anytime you're advertising a car, you're going to have to have the rest of the disclosures if they're truly offering it for $99 down. They don't run into this, though. So I think it's interesting to say this is a name, not necessarily an offer. And so if the federal regulation is specifically towards advertising offers, and so then we'd get very nerdy as attorneys to figure out whether or not that's an offer or not. So what would be like the cleanest way to advertise a car without any numbers associated with it? You can list price. That one is typically not a big trigger. Every state is different. Do you have to include dock fee or not? Do you include taxes? Most of the time it's price plus tax title license. And then dock is the question. Or just advertise that you have vehicles available. I mean, maybe it's the vehicle itself is the selling point. Maybe not necessarily the financing terms around it. Gotcha. Yeah. So that's interesting because this is, by the way, is purely anecdotal. Like throughout my career, we've always heard people say, and I've generally seen it to be true that consumers who are in a poor credit spot who are shopping for financing, they tend to be motivated or inquire about how much down payment would I need? What would it take to be approved? And then what would my payments be? So you didn't hear price or APR on that short list of the first three things. But we know we have an obligation to the consumer to disclose. I'm simply saying that's not always their motivation. So it's tricky for dealers who are out there trying to advertise buy here, pay here. They tend to not want to do price because they're not necessarily so competitive in the landscape on price. So you get it. There's a lot of reasons that you don't necessarily lead with price and that's fine because I know some buy here, pay here dealers may have a split. We sell this many cash cards. We sell this many in financing. And if that's the case, then maybe you do advertise price. If you don't and you're truly everything is financed or 99%, there's always that 1% chance someone won the lottery and is fine. buying a cash deal. But if you're doing financing as the majority and that's what you want to publicize, in your big header, you can lead with here's the down payment and here are the monthly payments. But you still have to disclose somewhere else that you can easily find, not in mouse print, but it doesn't have to be as big. What is the APR and how many payments are there? Because in my experience, consumers in the buy here, pay here space don't necessarily care how long they're making payments. It's what's on my pocket today. What do I have to budget every month? That's the concern. And so lead with those, but then provide the remaining disclosures somewhere else that are maybe not as prominent, but are still readable. Yeah. So we have a question from a viewer, which we'll put up, but I want to first ask or want to just clarify that we haven't touched specifically yet on leasing, but everything in leasing would be the same. I would have the same obligations or requirements in leasing, right? Yes. Leasing by and large has this name. We get a little interesting with end of lease liability. We do have to disclose that. That's kind of the additional term is what is that mileage over disposition fee? That also has to be disclosed. Ah, good. We talked about that. All right. All right. So the question again was what about do it signing? What about it? If I'm a former dealer, I think that's probably what they're asking. And we say do at signing and have some amounts in addition to down payment. Are you in the context? Are you thinking like you're built in title registration and doc fee? Is that what you're thinking? I think what we can answer is like, I think you would probably generally advise that they disclose whatever they're going to do, right? Whatever they're asking for. Is that fair? Yeah, the whole concept. If you want to have another number, hey, this is what the down payment is and this is the total do it signing. That's completely fine. What if it's not about a number and they're just saying licensing tags and doc fee do it signing? Almost all the states, when you dig into their code, allow that to be available. I think there's one or two you have to build it in, but most of them allow it to be an additional charge. Okay, gotcha. And the same Facebook user. Don't know who you are. So Facebook user, thank you for your... Is it... Tila, Truth in Lending. Truth in Lending or Federal Truth in Advertising. So federal truth in advertising is truth in lending. There's an additional layer on if it's unfair and deceptive act or practice. But by and large, if you comply with truth in lending, you don't have to worry about it being an unfair, deceptive act or practice. Truth in lending requires you to list the down payment, monthly payments. Actually, it says periodic, which is interesting. In Ohio, our adaptation says monthly. which creates a different level of chaos, but at the federal level, down payment, periodic payments, APR, and number of payments. That's the four required disclosures. So if you're going to disclose one, you have to disclose all four. If you don't disclose any, you don't have to disclose all four. The oddball is APR. You can list 0% APR available, but you can't list a term. If you say for 72 months, now you have to give all the disclosures. Interesting. I will say state regulators sometimes miss that. I had an issue with the – it was South Carolina – advertising. And that was just something that the state was not on the radar because it often gets lumped in together. And so you have to say, oh, hey, no, let's look at this. This is not a trigger term if we're not saying how long the APR is available. Can we kind of back up to a broader view on this and say that instead of the details of the actual finance terms, I think what dealers can now hear is they're going to advertise financing and going to indicate something about financing rate, down payment, whatever, then they should disclose in the way you suggest. But if we back up and just look at this, and we're having this conversation on White Hat Wednesday, so for us, it's always kind of trying to help dealers think about You know, from a White Hat way perspective, we're always trying to make sure that we go above and beyond, that we demonstrate over and over that we are not here to take advantage of consumers. Right. And so if you mentioned. So I would like for you to kind of share with our listeners who aren't familiar with UDAP kind of what the aim of that whole. What is it? The whole thing is. Yeah, so UDAP stands for unfair and deceptive acts or practices. There is a federal statute and then there are state statutes at the federal level. It's regulated by the FTC at the state level. It's usually the attorney general. And the idea is basically to fight against unscrupulous practices, right? It could be, hey, we gave you an estimate to fix your car that was $100, but then we jacked up the bill and now it's $5,000. Well, that would be unless you've told them, hey, we thought this was an easy fix. But if you just go, it's a $100 repair, and then you give them a bill for $5,000, that's an example of something that's unfair and deceptive. If you know you're selling a rebuilt salvage and you don't disclose to the customer this is a rebuilt salvage, that could be an actionable unfair and deceptive act or practice. And so, Michelle, transparency is queen. I don't always like to say king. It's queen here because the more transparent you are, the less likely it is someone even makes the allegation that you're engaging in a UDAP practice. Good. And just quickly, I want to make sure people know UDAP was around long before the CFPB. Oh, it's not even regulated by the CFPB. UDAP is actually regulated by the FTC. It's been around, I mean, before I was born. I want to say it came about late 60s, early 70s. Yeah, so I think this is not new territory. Sometimes people want to point at the government and say, the government's starting to crack down. They've been looking at this for a long time. They have a responsibility to protect consumers. Yeah. I mean, I think of the movie Matilda that may tell me my age, but where they dump sawdust into the car, like that's part of like the dad's mechanic shop. That's what UDAP's protecting against, right? You can't do that and then sell it and make a fortune, right? That's not acceptable. Yeah. I bought a few of those at the auction. I think every dealer has, Jim. So my question, you know, we talk about transparency and if you say, you know, this is what the terms are or all of that, is there... You know, we know it's like truth in lending, but we also know that there is a massive education gap, knowledge gap between the dealer and the consumer. And a lot of times the dealer is going to assume something. that the consumer understands what they're talking about. So where does the federal level, those that are watching, where does education, because you can say, hey, this is the thing, but they still don't understand what it is. I mean, I think that's a whole separate podcast, Michelle, on the gap in education in America. The rule of thumb that I have used and I tell my dealers, assume every person you're dealing with has a third grade education. Fair. If you look statistically, the average American has a third grade reading level. So if that's what you know to be true, then treat it like you would a third grader and have to explain those concepts. At third grade, you don't know what interest is. You don't know how that works. You know, at third grade, yes, you know how to add, subtract, maybe multiply if you're in an advanced class, but you haven't figured out the concept of interest. And so if you take that basic understanding and the same thing about the vehicle, hey, we have done whatever to prep it. You know, we've done reconditioning, which makes it look fancy, but maybe we've changed the oil or whatever. Or we haven't changed the oil because we just got it in. But anytime you can have those conversations to help them understand. And you're responsible for changing the oil every 3,000 miles. And maybe you bought a really big truck, but it's not great for truck pulls. Like those types of education. And I'm using examples of cases that I've resolved disputes from that have come up from people. Yeah. So things like this truck is not for truck pulls. It does not have the correct. No, I had someone bought a Ford F 350 with rear locking differential. Okay. So it's a big boy truck. and tore the engine out of it tore the transmission out of it and ford covered both and then he tore the transmission again and was just livid that ford would not cover it and we're like what is he doing and so I remember talking to him did you pull a house did you pull a boat like what I did not ask about dead weight yeah and a couple weeks later we found he won the county truck pull oh wow oh and it's like the audacity you think someone should cover your transmission Yeah, that's crazy. Well, you know, yeah. But I think the problem here is, as far as our buy-here-pay-your-dealers, when we're not sure, err on the side of disclosure and transparency. Just disclose it. What is it that we would be hiding? And I would say, just from a people perspective, that if you're trying to talk to them like you would someone in the third grade, make sure you're not condescending. And that you're just you're trying to use simple language, but just like how you would talk to an adult, but just using simple language. Yeah. And thank you, Michelle. I don't mean to talk down to folks. I just mean, oh, yeah, yeah, yeah. Plain English, right? As lawyers, we struggle with all this legal gobbledygook and I fight against it because I'm like, I can read it, but I'd much rather read something that's in basic words. It's easier to digest. And we, you know, we find that since I'm married and to buy her paper and I have a high intelligence level in certain things, right? not in interest rates and the this and the that. I mean, I come from the tech space. And so there's many times that just with us, and it's two smart people, that as Jim is like, it's this, and I'm like, whoa, whoa, whoa, whoa, whoa, whoa. I at least know that it's okay for me to ask. Yeah. What, what, what, you know, what does that mean? And I still do all the time. It's like, okay, you just used a word I'm not familiar with. What is that? And, and most of our customers won't, they don't feel like they can. And so that I do. It's a little like the other day. I just finally had to ask Michelle, what is this thing? And she said, that's a vacuum cleaner. Yeah. It's a sponge. You use it to wash the dishes. Really quickly. It's true. And it doesn't mean that the people aren't smart. Like I had this was a case. There was a lawyer. They were suing my client for overcharging them on a buy here, pay here deal. the customer didn't make payments on schedule he made lower payments and less frequently than he was supposed to he actually underpaid by like fifteen hundred dollars but I had to explain to the lawyer hey when you don't pay make payments as scheduled and you make them for less and it's 24 interest on this thing he didn't pay for it he didn't overpay like we had to go and break that down and so it doesn't even the smartest people may not understand the concept Yeah, it just depends on where their knowledge base, their circle is. Yeah. So I want to show we I wrote a couple of sample disclaimers. So so this is basically or disclosures be kind of the same thing. It's like when we run an ad that features a car at nine ninety nine. Then I just wrote something that would be representative of how I would recommend a client write it. And then, by the way, I'd also recommend run it by your attorney in your state. So make sure you're good there. But but basically what we're trying to do is disclose the finance term. So this vehicle, if we show a vehicle at nine and nine, excuse me, nine ninety nine down, that's all we say. then we would need to put the full disclosures in there. And so I wrote vehicle price or vehicle shown priced at $14,995. I'm going to read it for our listeners who will catch this on audio only. Amount to finance of $15,256 includes sales tax and fees, net of published down payment of $999. APR 23.9%. Terms are 39 months at $564 per month. Not all applicants qualify, but finance decision is not based on past credit. Call us at this number or visit for details. So any challenges or problems that you see there? No, I mean, that's what I strive for, you know, is getting something that clean. Yeah. So it's either nothing or something like this. Yes, exactly. Nowhere in between. That phrasing about not all applicants qualify is something that I personally used as a dealer before and I recommend it. It's just we're trying to emphasize. I add that part about it's not our decision, not based on past credit, because I don't want to. scare people away but I also need to tell them that not everybody is going to be able to walk in the door and get that particular those particular terms so we have to kind of so where jim goes it's like it might be based on current credit not past credit but current credit because they have like three open auto loans and you know they're you know whatever so 100 the scariest thing to me is see like guaranteed financing or something like that. That's represented because I have these conversations all the time. Can you guarantee financing? If I don't have a bank account, I don't have a job. I don't have a place to live. If you can do that. Yeah. One, I question your underwriting too. Then you can't guarantee financing for everyone. Yeah. How do you feel about when someone says 99% approved? If you can back it up, that's fine. But most of the time, you're not running the data in the back to be able to substantiate it. So if you want to say this amount, this percentage approved, then look at your numbers. And if it's 89%, then that's what you should put, not 99%. It goes to that transparency, Michelle. You don't get to make things up, but if you can prove it, great. You can advertise it. And look, we, we, you know, car dealers are our audience. They're our clients as coaches and we love them. Dealers can be a little, they're, they're often sales minded. And some of their team can be guilty of overselling. And so they sometimes, you know, kind of that's where they stretch the truth a little bit. And so basically what I'm hearing, just tell the truth. Just lay it out there. Because typically dealers don't have to you know, oversell and buy here, pay here to build a win customers. And so I, you know, the other thing that we want to talk about before we wrap up is we, we, we urge dealers to think about selling the program, not the car, which lets us sidestep this whole thing about featuring a certain car at a certain price, or they can still feature a car, but then just talk about the way they do business. Then that kind of eliminates a lot of this, right? I have a question though. So if you, if you feature one car and, does that mean that you have to disclose on all cars? If you're only showing, if you have an ad that has 15 cars and this one is what Jim has up here, the $14.99 finance, you don't have to do anything for the other ones as long as you're specific. This is the offer on this vehicle. This vehicle. Okay. And usually you do that by proximity. You don't have to like point or anything. Right. And what I was really suggesting though is it's not even a price. It's a photo of a car. It's not even talking about. Or call for availability or whatever. I think most of the folks, at least from me talking with my dealers, that are in the buy here, pay here space, they need reliable transportation. If you lead with we inspect all of our cars or we replace these components to everything before we sell it or whatever it is that you're doing to make sure you're selling reliable cars, that's going to be almost as important. Because if you're also advertising we do buy here, pay here, the folks that are in that market are going to understand what that's going to look like. Yeah, it's interesting too. I'm reminded as you say that about a dealer that we helped start down south years ago. And one of the things we urge them to do is create, with all of our clients, we urge them to create a poster that can go on the wall. So when a customer walks in, we first greet them that we take them to the poster and we show them, here's the way we do business. Here's all the wonderful things about doing business with us. And so we took a photo of that poster and we featured it on Facebook and their, their social media blew up. It's like, you know, there were no cars, there were no prices. It was just a way we do business and they got a lot of opportunity off of that. And so I think it's, it's, this is why we talk about, you know, sell yourself, sell the program, sell the dealership. Don't, don't sell used cars. You know, we, we hear, you know, some dealers, it's like, well, you have to, they want to know what the price is. You have to. Um, and, and it's like the, the, That's what you're telling yourself, but there are a lot of people that are still going to land in your dealership that have no idea what your interest rate is. They just want to know what they need to put down and how much it's going to be. yeah it comes about like what's your branding if you're branding yourself as we're the price champion then yes you have to put price but if you're branding yourself as we sell reliable transportation and help people who have a hard time with credit that's a different message you don't have to list price Right. Yeah. That's kind of what we're suggesting that dealers would move toward it. Do it as much of that, at least prove it through AB testing, try it, see if it can work for you. We think, you know, I think this is another area where I think consumers sometimes don't get the credit they deserve where, and what I mean by that is I think most consumers who would look at an ad, if they're in a tough credit spot, they kind of know they're going to pay a higher price. They're going to pay a higher interest rate. And so they expect that in the, in the environment. So now it's not, it's not like you're going to win me as a customer because your interest rate is two points lower potentially. I mean, people try to, but, and they could try, but I would just say, test it, whatever you're doing. And it also, it's, we've said to dealers, if you've got someone that's saying, Hey, your interest rate is too high. They probably don't really, they haven't fully grasped. where they land on the credit spectrum right now. And, and so, you know, it's, you, you, you gently lead them through, well, you know, this is, this, this is, uh, why we have that. I have an interest rate and, and all of that, but that there's, it's, it's like that knowledge gap can go both ways too, about why education piece. Yeah. Why, why is the interest rate so high? Well, Let's yeah. And that's why we like bringing smart people like you for the morning. We can help us sort this stuff out. So here's the same, the same ad, the same disclosure, but I added that section in red. It says additional down payment always helps to reduce finance charges, may lower the pay or may lower the payments and often increases the chance of approval. So you saw that before the show started and you said, you don't, you don't see any problem with adding that kind of language. No, it's providing the education, right? Like for everyone in the buy here, pay here space that's a dealer, you're like, duh, yeah. But it may not be the same intuition that everyone else has. Yeah. And it's something we try to incorporate in training because if you read that carefully, we just offered the customer three ways that down payment is better for them. You know, so if we're running a low down payment promotion, we just want to say, you know, be aware that it often increases the chance of approval. The dealers do factor that in and their underwriting. And so now it's like we said, it could help reduce finance charges. We know that's true. When you finance less, you're going to have less finance charges. And so it's And it may lower the payment. So the customer can choose. Do I want to lower the payments or shorten the term? That's why I say it may, because we can still negotiate with them. They could save some more interest by just staying with the same payment and going to shorter term. So it's just part of the education process. We just have to kind of make them aware. And I think my main point of featuring this part was that when we disclose, we're just required to include. the disclosure in there, we can go on to say some positive things about us. There would be no problem with us adding to the end of that something like, check out our 4.8 stars on Google, right? As long as you have 4.8 stars, then yeah, there's not a problem. Yeah, but... That's the point. Use it to promote yourself. Yeah. For those people who take time to read the fine print, let's, let's put a little plug in there for, you know, for ourselves. We don't have to stop at the disclosure, I guess is my point. And we can educate a little bit and make sure and do what we can, because when we do have to disclose those kinds of uncomfortable numbers, we could at least try to finish with something that's a little more inviting and comfortable. Well, and I would, I would propose that even the higher number isn't something that scares people. a lot of the sub-subprime credit spectrum. What scares them is the down payment and the payment more than the other. If they have it, they pay it. It's just one of those things where we're in tax refund season, and so people are doing a little larger down payment, and they're doing business. I just think for today, we just wanted to have a chance to visit this thing about – the disclosures and kind of how to, how to say it. And, you know, basically what we, what we concluded was, you know, just, just if you're not sure, just be transparent, disclose, say all the stuff. And, and we would urge as coaches, we would say, just try on your marketing, go do some AB testing, find out if you really need to be showing those prices and down payments and, and so on. And, and maybe sidestep that part. What I'm hearing though, moral of the story for all of you listeners out there, share everything or share nothing, but there's really no in between. It's like you share all of the things, all of the terms, or you share none of the terms when there's a specific vehicle, when there's a specific vehicle featured. Yeah. And the one thing I will say, cause I see it drive around town are stickers that say like $500 down. Um, even when we think of advertising, it used to be print paper and now it's social media or, you know, any of the other platforms. Yeah. Well, one, it lives forever. But two, it also means the stuff you're doing in print. If it's on the hood of your car as people are driving by, that's still advertising. If it's on a loaner vehicle because you are a great dealer who provides loaner vehicles to your customers when they're in for repair, that still applies. So don't think of this as, oh, it's only in this one place. So is there a sunset clause by federal regulations to, I advertised back here that this was my interest rate. And so someone saw that and that's why they came in and that's not the case anymore. Well, interest rate, as we talked about, that's the one oddball. If you just do interest, you're fine as long as you don't list terms. But it's called statute of limitations. It's different in every state from a state action level. If I remember right, there's not a private cause of action under the FTC. That is something that the FTC has to enforce. But under state law, it's incorporated. And so you get the state cause of action. In Ohio, where we have ours, it's two years. And then in other states, it's going to be somewhere in the two to four year range. So what I'm hearing from this is that if you're advertising certain pieces of the financing, that that is something that can kind of come back and haunt you for up to two to five years. yeah okay unfortunately yes yeah yeah so that's it's tricky I mean I i hadn't ever thought about that part but yeah that's uh it's all the more reason to just find out if you really need to be just selling those terms at all you know and uh and just see if you can still create business without going that direction but you know we definitely obviously in in the white hat way way of doing business we we would like when we're operating as white hat dealers we we would like to see dealers sell that a little bit more, you know, kind of learn to sell themselves and sell that program and way of doing business and help customers feel comfortable. And then they'll choose a car, you know, they'll come choose a car. They want to do business with us and they'll find a car that suits their needs. But we just kind of, we urge dealers to at least find out if they can attract customers. And we are, just so you know, Allison, I'm excited about this, but this is one of the things we're doing this year is we're starting to really put together consumable education for the consumers that dealers can lean into and say, you know, here's the stuff and to continually educate and on the front end, in the middle and all of that. So it's because it's so needed. It's just so needed. Yeah. I mean, I saw some meme and it was like, you know, I'm really glad I had to take geometry or something instead of personal finances in high school because it's really coming in handy. I can figure out an angle. Yeah. Right. I mean, that's great for interior design or if you're an architect, but like otherwise we're not using a lot of that, what we learned and we missed a lot of what everyone has to use every day. It doesn't matter if you're a CEO or you're homeless, you've got to figure out how to manage what you have so you can get where you want to go. Sure. Yeah, absolutely. That's probably a good spot to end. I hope you'll build a fine time to come back and see us again. There's obviously lots more to talk about. What we just talked about, there's a whole other one to unpack. Yeah, yeah, for sure. Yeah, but the lack of education. Yeah. I would love to come back and I will be in Vegas for NIADA. So I think Jim and Michelle will meet up. We would love to. Absolutely. Alison, would you stick around backstage so we can say a proper goodbye after we close off? Excellent. Thank you. Thank you again so much for joining us. Of course. Thanks for having me. Thanks for doing this. I love it. You're welcome. All righty. Well... Good stuff. Good stuff. Some really great information. And luckily, for those of you who are going to be listening to this on the syndicated podcast stations, if you would like to see the actual copy of some of the advertising that Jim suggested, go to our YouTube station and get that information there. And, or, and... If there's anything that we can help you with, please feel free to reach out and private message us. You know, give us a holler. You can find ways to reach us at whitehatway.com is a really great way to find us. And you can also find Allison at alhlaw.com. alhlaw.com. Again, thank you guys so much for joining us. Happy White Hat Wednesday, and we'll see you on Friday.
